Croco-Liga team competition, starting in September 2012

[detuned]

I think I better not discuss our next opponents here (just checked them out briefly), at least not now.

It would be interesting to know your strategy against your next opponent !

Fred

Certainly, the results of last week's killer sudoku were verrrrry interesting I can't say I was too unhappy with the kakuro result either, although this was obviously a much weaker result personally speaking
http://www.croco-puzzle.com/Liga/highscore.php

[Fred76]

I think I better not discuss our next opponents here (just checked them out briefly), at least not now.

It would be interesting to know your strategy against your next opponent !

Fred

Certainly, the results of last week's killer sudoku were verrrrry interesting I can't say I was too unhappy with the kakuro result either, although this was obviously a much weaker result personally speaking
http://www.croco-puzzle.com/Liga/highscore.php

Yes, very interesting ! I think we'll change strategy, given that I've no chance to beat you on the killer sudoku.

[driv4r]

Well, thanks for the hints on your strategy I guess!

EDIT: My preferences and other important stuff posted in Mini-Chat, so please check it out guys!

[driv4r]

Sorry about 2 consecutive posts but no response whatsoever from rodders or afcwarren, and as I posted on Friday already and there is only 1 day left to assign the puzzles I must post again in case my posts haven't been noticed.

So, could you look into it asap?

[detuned]

Yes, very interesting ! I think we'll change strategy, given that I've no chance to beat you on the killer sudoku.

Fred, you awful liar

[driv4r]

So, if you start to solve before 23:00 GMT on Sunday and end after 23:00 then the result doesn't count

[berni]

So, if you start to solve before 23:00 GMT on Sunday and end after 23:00 then the result doesn't count

The matchday ends at exactly midnight (GMT+1). Submittions after this, will be ignored. (This is a different behaviour to the Ü-Rätsel where late submittions are still accepted.)

[detuned]

Sounds fair enough to me.

driv4r, perhaps instead of spamming the mini-chat, your time would have been better spent solving the puzzle earlier!

[driv4r]

I'm sorry detuned but I didn't spam the Mini-Chat. Instead I've been trying to find a better option for team communication, which hopefully will happen soon.

OK, it's probably fair indeed but as it is different in Ü-Rätsel I thought that maybe it would be the same in the League...
But never mind, my time was terrible anyway and I would have lost it. After all it (Laser) was my 6th choice for the week, so I didn't expect too much anyway.

My Fillomino (3rd choice) result was actually decent, though I lost to my opponent. I was 39th out of 47 and even beat Northern UK solver

[detuned]

Communication is utterly meaningless if you don't bother to solve the puzzles. You were on the mini-chat all week - clearly with plenty of time to be solving puzzles - and yet you didn't bother solving until right at the very last moment - my bad - after the very last moment on Sunday evening. Does that not strike you as being an egregiously stupid thing to do?

I'm sorry if I'm coming across as being particularly harsh, but thus far you have approached this competition entirely from your own point of view and your own interests, rather than trying to see what is best for the team.

[driv4r]

Look, communication is necessary in that kind of team competition as you have to assign puzzles, discuss who solves what, discuss opponents, last week's results etc. I'd even say communication is essential in this comp! That's why I came up with the idea of alternative method as well but so far only 2 have responded.

And how the hell do you know that I was on the Mini-Chat all week?? Instead I was trying to avoid it as I don't like it and only checked it when I was on Croco anyway checking my stats or solving sth.
And I didn't have as much time as you seem to think as I was working as well most of the days.
Egregiously stupid thing to do? Hmm, do you wanna say I'm stupid or sth?
Laser was not really something I would succeed in or solve easily, so I guess I wasn't that motivated to solve it earlier. And if I'd have solved it fast I'd have got it done by 23:00 but I spent ages on it. Obviously that's not how it was meant but yeah.

Well, as I've explained earlier I'm not good in most of the puzzles that are given and sudokus are clearly my strongest side, so it's not that I have approached it entirely from my own interests (as you said) as my chances to win are many times higher in sudokus compared to other puzzles. For example in classic sudoku I'm very good and in Comparison Sudoku good but in Fillomino, Domino and Camp maybe mediocre, can get good results sometimes when the puzzles suit me but other times can fail miserably. There are a few others in which I can get decent results sometimes (but I wouldn't say I'm any good in them) but in about half of the puzzles I suck. It's quite obvious that solving those puzzles that are clearly my best is better for team if there are other people who are more universal and can solve good number of puzzles very well.

[PuzzleScot]

Northern UK uses email. We have 1/2 dozen emails ("reply all") per week max, and usually all in one day.

Please remember that when you write something on this forum, you are effectively standing up in front of 500 people and saying "Listen to me!", so please think before posting here:-
1) Is what you are saying important and interesting enough to merit everyone's attention?
2) Would email be more appropriate?

Thank-you.

[kiwijam]

I was 39th out of 47 and even beat Northern UK solver

Lauri, please stop telling us when you beat another UK member at a puzzle. It is rude. It only occurs when the other puzzler has had an unusually poor time, and they don't wish to be reminded of it. Celebrate their achievements instead.

Sudoku may be your best puzzle type, but you are still worse than the rest of your team at it, and the opponents you face. If you continue at your current level, you will eventually reach a final sudoku rating of 1030. Compare this to the sudoku legend in your team, who is over 2500.
Which is why it is not in the team's interests for you to do sudokus. Looking at your Liga scores, I would suggest it's in your teammate's interests to choose puzzles that maximize their own chances to win, and over time you can practise and improve.

[sorry Alan, didn't read your post!]

[driv4r]

Heh, you got it wrong. I didn't mean to be rude and I think it's normal that I'm comparing my results with other UK solvers, especially with Northern UK team solvers as it's like a derby match between us, don't you think? Anyway, I wouldn't mind if anyone would compare their results to mine and of course I'm happy for Northern UK if they win as well, I have nothing against anyone.

If you compare my rating with other guys in my team then yes, you are right. But all of them have solved more sudokus than me as well, my rating's still going up and possibly hasn't reached my actual level yet plus I'm improving all the time. I acknoledge that detuned is superior to me in sudoku but I'm not sure about everyone in my team but that's not the place to discuss it... And well, probably not all opponents are better than me in sudoku, I've defo seen some in opposing teams whose ratings have been lower than mine. And in Liga I've had a couple of good results in sudoku and comparison sudoku, including 47. place.

Anyway, how do you know that my final rating will be 1030 if I continue at my current level? That's interesting.

But I actually wonder why do you post about this stuff as you are not in either of the 2 UK teams


And sorry, I didn't mean to post on the subject any more as it's not the right place but kiwijam has directly replied to my post (in such a way), so I couldn't help. But let's stop it now and tbh email has gone through my mind as well, so I shall mention it in Mini-Chat if my original idea won't get any support, which seems to be the case.

[detuned]

Please remember that when you write something on this forum, you are effectively standing up in front of 500 people and saying "Listen to me!", so please think before posting here:-
1) Is what you are saying important and interesting enough to merit everyone's attention?
2) Would email be more appropriate?

Thank-you.

This was certainly something that I had not forgotten. My 3rd consideration was that sometimes it's nice to have something "on the record" to refer back to.

Perhaps we can postpone talk of the Northern-Southern UK rivalry until that match-up actually happens, and as James says concentrate on celebrating people's successes? That said, when it does it will certainly be one I particularly hope we win

[PuzzleScot]

But I actually wonder why do you post about this stuff as you are not in either of the 2 UK teams

I suggest you start showing a little respect and consideration to others. No-one looks forward to reading anything you write anyway, but you have gone too far with this comment. Sorry, but your account here is now suspended indefinitely.

[dickoon]

Not really related to what's going on online, but - in theory - would people be interested in doing something very much like Croco-League Live! at a future UKPA con? I know UKPA con time is limited as it is, so it might be wise to do something with a big more interaction between team members for our team contests, but I'm thoroughly enjoying the online league and its team play, and this might give people a chance to get a taste for things as a one-off, say, two-hour slot, rather than having to commit to some activity once every fortnight for most of a year.

Here's how I envision it working:

1) Obtain (e.g.) three sets of (e.g.) twelve puzzles of varied nature - at a pinch, computer-generate them through (e.g.) the Simon Tatham Puzzle Pack - and print out sufficient copies.
2) Divide the participants into four (or six or eight) teams, possibly thematically, but hopefully of comparable size and ability. If numbers are small, prefer four teams of three to three teams of four. (*)
3) Schedule some appropriate tournament structure depending on number of teams, time available etc. - so, perhaps, a single round-robin for four teams and something more Swiss-style for bigger contests.
4) For each match, pre-announce the (e.g.) twelve puzzle types and give the teams (e.g.) five minutes to divide the puzzles among their team members.
5) In turn, the 12 puzzles are all solved against the clock, with each team being responsible for timing and checking the other team's players' performance. You can't proctor an opponent solving the puzzle that you're about to solve yourself, so you don't get an advance view of what you're about to solve.
6) Score as in the Croco-Puzzle League; the more accurate, or faster, solver of each puzzle scores for their team, and the team with more puzzles won wins the match overall.

Granted, the puzzles would probably be pretty vanilla (and probably also necessarily towards the lighter end of the spectrum) but hopefully the team aspect and time pressure would be sufficiently entertaining to make the overall event distinctive and enjoyable.

(*) Puzzle: devise some sort of variant of "You cut, I choose" to try to ensure reasonably competitive teams. Bonus if it's entertaining itself!

[detuned]

sounds good, and akin in spirit to the after hours racing in the bar that always seems to happen at wsc/wpc's.

as a point of interest, one loose format we used in croatia was one team deciding the puzzles to be solved from the two books we could find multiple copies of. we had teams of 3, and the 2 book situation led to a vague rotation situation where no-one wasn't solving for too long. winner was the first team to finish the set, who would then announce the next set...

[furudo.erika]

Well this is somewhat unhelpful: Apple blocks Java 7 plug-in in Mac OS X after exploit discovered

Hopefully the fix is out soon.

[sknight]

Right now on Windows/Firefox, you get a little box that says something like "this plugin has security vulnerabilities, click here to run it anyway", so at least you get the option if you trust the site.

[apollo1001]

Well this is somewhat unhelpful: Apple blocks Java 7 plug-in in Mac OS X after exploit discovered

Hopefully the fix is out soon.

I noticed the same problem a couple of days ago. Downloaded firefox today and it seems to work okay with croco on Mac OS X. Only difference really being that you cannot pinch zoom the screen - hope that helps!

[PuzzleScot]

Downloaded firefox today and it seems to work okay with croco on Mac OS X. Only difference really being that you cannot pinch zoom the screen - hope that helps!

Not sure what you mean by that. Try Ctrl+/- to zoom in/out.

By the way. Liga resumes Mon 14th Jan...

[furudo.erika]

By the way. Liga resumes Mon 14th Jan...

...and the new Java version is out and it all works fine for me again. Good timing

[furudo.erika]

So I tried using the Solve functionality in Google Docs Spreadsheets to get the optimal allocation of puzzles for Southern UK this week. I learned that entering constraints is a real pain but I did produce this:



Now we just need it integrated into the ranking scraper

[dickoon]

Southern UK, I'm delighted that the Swiss Team did you a favour and you have automatic promotion in your own hands; win your last match and you're guaranteed to go up!

Lots of promotions happening now or in the very near future, too; Alan to 6 kyu, Steve imminent 2 kyu, Adam within touching distance of 12 kyu and more. Congratulations all round!